Is Religion Supposed to Be Comfortable?

From listener and reader Johnathan ~

It's odd to hear you guys discussing whether you feel connected to a faith/religion or not based on how it fits with your view of the world (e.g., HerBadMother saying that the lack of empathy for Tanner's baptism troubles made her withdraw). Is religion supposed to be comfortable? happy? easy?  Or is it supposed to be about what you believe? What makes you so sure that God agrees with your way 
of doing things instead of the church/religion you are questioning?

I'm not quite sure whether we're supposed to fit into a religion or if we're supposed to find a religion that fits with us. And quite frankly, will we ever find a religion that is perfect - because, aren't we human, and therefore bound to have faults regardless of how high our supposed standing is within the church?

I wonder if it's not so much about being comfortable, but more that religion (and faith based beliefs) should hold some level of non-judgment and empathy. And that the beliefs of helping others, doing good, and living life to its fullest supersede the damn rules that we must follow for fear of hell and damnation.

My gripes with the Catholic church in particular have to do with priests (no females, non-married, and this denial that they are sexual humans, many of which are gay and that it's been used for many years as an escape for gay men who do not feel accepted in society), gay marriage (or lack thereof), the sorely lacking support of feminist values, and the notion that rules and regulations, mandatory attendance, confession, (etc.) seem to come ahead of your personal relationship with the God of your choosing,

Like right now, as I hear my MIL guilt my husband into going to confession tonight so he can take communion on Christmas Day. Because if he doesn't go to some priest and have confession, then he can't take communion. But he can say stupid shit and be an ass all the other days of the week.

Side note - Maybe he'll be exonerated for all the stupid shit he says. So maybe I should tell him to go to church.

I digress.

Perhaps it's my gripe with most Christian/Western religions, not just Catholicism. I suppose if I owned a pair of shoes that weren't comfortable I wouldn't wear them. And then, what's their use and role in my life except to sit in my closet and take up space?

Who knows? But for me. For now. I'll pass on religion and just do good for good's sake.

What about you? Is religion supposed to be comfortable?

Comments

[Sarah]

Don't know if you'll check up on this, but I've been thinking and it really kinda bothered me about you celebrating Christmas without any kind of religious basis...why not Hannukah? Is Christmas more fun. You know Christ is in the word CHRISTmas and it is a Chritian based holiday...Just wanted to ask you that.

[Johnathan]

Hey, I'm a choir singer too! I'm a tenor in a choir based out of Morristown/Mendham NJ (www.harmonium.org), and I just did some caroling at a nursing home in Hackettstown. And yes, the majority of what I sing is sacred music. The music means the world to me, but that doesn't mean I believe in what the words are about.

If you admit to just following the traditions you were raised in (which is bad, but doesn't make you any worse than almost all of humanity), then it's not a question of being a fake only in _others'_ eyes. Yes, it is up to you to decide what to believe and teach, but that doesn't mean it's a good decision to believe and teach untrue things.

We're big Christmas fans! Huge Christmas fans! Christmas is the best. But what do we "teach" our kids about it? Jeez, the same thing we teach them about Halloween, that is, nothing. Everything about the holiday is self evident: you get a tree and decorate it, you give each other presents, you sing cool Christmas songs, it's fun, it's exhausting, etc.. The connection to the birth of Christ is totally irrelevant to the true meaning of the holiday to us, so we haven't called particular attention to it. It's not like we're hiding it, and we'll talk about it if they ask. (Oh, and the true meaning of the holiday as far as I'm concerned is a chance to take a day and treat the people we love like we wish we could afford to the whole year.)

[Sarah]

This discussion is getting extremely deep. You all seem well-educated and I'm most impressed by your facts and obvious studies into the depths of religion.

I am a singer...I sing at a lot of funerals and weddings...mostly in the catholic church..I stay at home the rest of the time with my 3 sons and I have to say when I go to church and sing for people and in a sense console them with my voice I feel a strong sense of inner-peace. The words to the hymns are so beautiful and meaningful.

You guys have me really confused...I understand your concern with feeling something in your heart and all the facts behind certain religious practices, but I guess right now I am guilty of just taking what I was raised and following it. If that makes me a fake or not true to myself in others eyes...I'd have to say sorry...ultimately what I believe and teach my children is up to me and that's the beauty of life.

You guys are very intersting and I thank you for expressing your views on religion and life.

Have a Happy New Year!

P.S. Do you celebrate Christmas? If so...what do you teach your children?

[Rebecca]

Sarah, thank you for your response. I'm glad our discussion has you thinking so much. I too have many great friendships with people who think very differently from me. Even if I think they're incorrect about some pretty important topics, there is just so much to enjoy about other people, not the least of which is engaging in conversation about some of those complex, important topics.

As Johnathan has already discussed, you haven't fully answered our question, though I suspect your response may be the fullest answer you have. I hope you'll agree at least that the whole of your argument (e.g., "I'm right") is not very compelling. You say "each individual must take what they truly believe in their heart...", but *how* do you determine what you "truly believe"? Do you think your beliefs (which you apparently hold to be truths) are merely placed in your mind (or "heart") without need for consideration or validation? Or do you engage in some process whereby you *determine* what is actually true (and thus the *right thing* to believe)? If you think the former, how do you come to determine probability or certainty regarding the truth of the beliefs you happen to find in your head (because you do seem pretty certain about a lot of them)? If you think the latter, then you haven't provided a full answer to our question. If you don't simply accept the contents of your mind or "heart" (whatever it is or however it was acquired) as true, then there must be some process of thinking that you're using to determine what is true.

You ask: "When you make choices is it following what you truly feel in your heart? Do you relate feelings in your heart to any kind of faith or hope? A feeling like something is meant to be or happens for a reason?"

I make choices based on cognitive judgments, not feelings. Feelings arise *from* cognitive judgments; they are not tools of thought. When determining truth, I look to the evidence of my senses and engage in a process of reason. It is this process that underlies my conclusion that the so-called "supernatural" is fantastical. Atheism is the only position in regard to the supernatural that is without contradiction and is not self-refuting (and therefore the only one consistent with the process of logic). I will argue my position only on such a basis; never on a "feeling" I have or a desire that something be true. Because wanting something and "believing it in your heart" [e.g., feeling it] does not make it true.

You claim that you simply *cannot* attribute the fact that you admitted yourself to the hospital the day before your son was born as mere coincidence or luck (actually, I'd say it was a pretty predictable and mundane incident, given the warning signs you experienced that prompted you to seek medical counsel and prompted your doctors to keep you under observation). Presumably, you think instead that it was divine intervention from God. Then I ask you: To what do you attribute the fact that you suffered placenta previa in the first place? The premature and risky birth that caused you panic and fear? The NICU stay your son endured afterwards? Why credit your all-powerful god with the good parts of the story but excuse him from blame for the bad parts? Why *can* you overlook all these unfortunate situations as something *other* than divine intervention while you refuse to consider the one bit of good fortune you experienced to be *anything but* divine intervention? I'd be very interested in hearing your answer.

[Johnathan]

(Whoops, I wrote the post immediately below as though I were talking directly to commenter Sarah. Apologies for the confusion to other readers (if you're out there).)

[Johnathan]

(While I fully realize that you, my wife, and I might be the only ones reading these comments at this point, I still like the idea of continuing this discussion here. I just hope the exchange is pissing off fewer people than the number who find it enjoyable.)

I'm going to try to address some of your points and questions in order. Fortunately, the very first one is by far the most important.

The question I posed involved _two_ people, you and someone else, with _each_ of you believing something "in your heart". But they are two mutually incompatible things, that baptism either isn't required, or that it is. So _someone's_ heart is lying to them. And your answer is that you are right??!! Based on what? You really believe that the feelings in _your_ heart are always going to point you to the truth while the other person's feelings are leading them to lies? Or to get out of the realm of the hypothetical, that the Jew and the Muslim and the atheist and the Hindu and the Buddhist, that _all_ of our hearts are leading us astray while _yours_ is truth's own compass needle?

Please. That's laughable. What's more, I think you know it, because of the way you follow up with "Each individual must take what they truly believe in their heart and I guess in a sense run with it." That's practically a confession that you have no more or less reason than anyone else to believe what you do, and are just going to keep on doing it because well, hell, you think you've gotta do _something_ (such as the Catholic rites, the Jewish rites, the Hindu practices, etc.), and you're picking Catholicism because it's what you started with.

Now you must think that either the _something_ that you're doing matters, or that it doesn't. If you think it does, you must be living in terror or denial, because that would mean that the fate of your immortal soul is dependent upon you getting details right that you are powerless to reliably figure out. And if you think it doesn't matter, that any practice is as good as any other, then I hate to break it to you, but you're not a Catholic. You're a Unitarian :-) .

(Regarding why Catholics dogma holds that baptism is necessary, there's no need to ask a priest, this atheist knows enough Catholicism to tell ya. The Catholic answer is that unbaptized children are _not_ innocent, not in the eyes of God, anyway. All flesh from Adam and Eve on down has been corrupted by The Fall, and Original Sin can only be washed away by the waters of a valid baptism, just as subsequent sin can only be cleansed from the soul through confession. Sounds harsh, I know, but I don't make the rules here. God obviously takes The Fall seriously, as he sacrificed his Son to redeem us, right? What's the point if we're truly innocent at birth? Protestants have a different take on the "technology" of forgiveness, but we're not talking about those heretics here. Never ever forget that according to Catholicism, no baby prior to baptism, not yours, mine, or anyone else's anywhere, is innocent. They are stained with Original Sin, and as such are _not_ fit for heaven.)

When I make a choice, ANY choice, it has nothing to do with my "heart", by which I take you to mean my emotions. I use reason to make the best judgment I can, and if I absolutely need to make a choice when the details are sketchy, I'll guess, but usually the facts are pretty obvious. My conclusions might not always be what I wish were true, but truth has nothing to do with my wishes. No one gets very far pretending things aren't as they are.

In the sense that you mean, no, nothing is "meant" to happen. While you and hundreds of others pulled through near tragedies the day of your emergency caesarean, there were _other_ hundreds of others who perished that same day. Are you telling me that you and the rest in the first group were worthy of divine intervention while the others in the second group were not? It's far more likely that each group of you contained a range of people from scum to saints, and some of you got lucky, and some didn't. No magic. Just blind probabilities rescuing some lives, destroying others.

You posed a question about my background a few comments back: I was raised Catholic in a generally lackluster fashion. I showed bouts of enthusiasm for religion, treating it as an academic skill that I should master. However, Confirmation preparation (I was 13 years old) was for me a call to introspection, as we were admonished to reflect upon our faith to ready ourselves to receive the Holy Spirit. And in so reflecting, I had to admit that I did not believe in the Holy Spirit, or in the divinity of Christ, or in God, or in the enlightenment of Buddha, or leprechauns, or anything else supernatural. Nothing "made" me an atheist. I am an atheist because I do not believe in God.

[Sarah]

Which of us is right? That is a good question and my answer has to be that I'm right. Each individual must take what they truly believe in their heart and I guess in a sense run with it. As for all religious and non-religious whether it be Jewish, Catholic, Presbyterian, Atheist, we all practice something and try to believe what we are practicing is the right way. The problem with me is some of the things Catholics practice.. one is that specific question you asked me about baptism, I don't understand. I truly believe if an innocent child isn't baptized how can they not end up in so called heaven? Maybe I should ask a preist. Funny, I never really questioned some of the beliefs of the catholic church until this whole post.

You really have me deep in thought.

I compare religious beliefs to parenting.....for instance...my children eat what I make for supper...I am not a diner....BUT some parents cater to their kids and cook them what they want. How about spanking....I don't think there is anything wrong with spanking your child...When it's completely necessary (being disrespectful or harming someone else). Some parents are completely anti-spanking and that's fine but who's wrong or right?

Many things in life follow that question you ask...who is right?

When you make choices is it following what you truly feel in your heart? Do you relate feelings in your heart to any kind of faith or hope? A feeling like something is meant to be or happens for a reason?

When I was pregnant with my last son, I had placenta previa. I started to spot on a Sunday evening, called the Dr, they told me to go to the hospital. I went, they checked me out, put me on a monitor, I had that Magnesium Sulfate to stop some contractions and the next day around 630pm I felt really sick, sat up, threw up, and started to hemmorrage. I had my son at 6:48pm by emergency C-section. All the way to ER I kept saying Hail Mary's. When I look back at that time frame, I can't help recognizing I was already at the hospital. Someone was watching over me and got me there the night before. If I wasn't already in the hospital me and my son would be dead. Those situations to me can't be overlooked as coincedence or luck.

We can just go back and forth asking questions..because honestly I find other peoples beliefs very interesting. Not to mention my open-mindedness (if that's a word) to explore and learn about other people. Religion, politics, parenting really only make up a part of who you are. I have a couple friends(one being Kristen)who have different views about politics, parenting and religion and we still get along and have a great friendship.

What Kristen posted before..."I would just rather be a good, kind person."

If you can find a good, kind, honest person out there these days that's golden.

[Rebecca]

This is Johnathan's wife, and I've been following this discussion from the beginning, though I haven't yet commented.

Sarah, you asked "where do you turn if you have no faith"? The answer is simpler than you might think. People suffer all sorts of ills in this world. They grieve, lean on others, and if able, they eventually move on. It's much like healing from a physical wound. There's nothing mysterious or magical about it. Interestingly, the traumas you've suffered are not foreign to me. I suffered 4 miscarriages before the birth of my first son. It was by far the most difficult time of my life (and I believe of my husband's too). Toward the end, I became depressed. But I endured. I sought support from others who had been through pregnancy loss and sought information about infertility, I saw doctors and underwent testing to try to diagnose and solve our problem, and I consciously worked on my own negative thoughts in an attempt to improve my outlook and place my losses in the proper context of my larger, wonderful life. Already an atheist (an active atheist, not one by default), I knew my miscarriages were not being done "to me" or for any greater purpose that I could not understand. They just happened, much like unfortunate things happen to all sorts of people all the time, and they really stunk. I too lived through my darkest hours, went on to have 4 beautiful children, and yet I've remained an atheist throughout. There are other ways to weather trauma than resorting to belief in the supernatural.

In your post, you've shared some information regarding what you *do* feel in your heart and how you chose to turn to religion for comfort. But you didn't answer the question Johnathan posed to you in his last post: how do you know what you feel in your heart is *true*? Your heart tells you that baptism isn't a requirement to enter heaven. Somebody else's heart tells her that baptism *is* a requirement to enter heaven. How do you determine which of you is right? This is the specific question Johnathan and I would like you to answer.

[Sarah]

Well Johnathan I must say you have me completely intrigued. Were do I start...I guess I'm a little confused myself when it comes to what I believe. I don't know what your situation is. Were you raised any specific religion and you just lost sight and chose to become atheist? I guess what I'm trying to say is, all my life I just kinda went through the motions....probably like MOST catholics...pretty sad. There was a point in time when I didn't even go to church, then when I got engaged the right thing to do was get married in a church....Right? So we went through the motions again. Pretty sad.

I didn't really even seek out any form of god until I had a miscarriage. Then when that happened I found myself searching for answers......ok here's where the heart question comes in......I took comfort in knowing that certain things happen for a reason.... it wasn't the right time...not meant to me...I got into the bigger picture. Then I had a beatiful baby he was healthy and life was good. So how do you explain the next miscarriage...I found with each loss instead of saying why me and abandoning my beliefs I dove deeper into my heart and soul reaching for some sort of comfort. Being familiar with Catholism having practiced it all my life, I turned back to the church. I've had 7 pregnancies and I have 3 children. One of them was an ectopic which I had emergency surgery to have a fallopian tube removed. One was a 17 week loss. And as I said before my last son was 9 weeks early. So in my rough journey to motherhood I ask where do you turn if you have no faith?

I apoligize when sharing any of this personal information if it offends anyone but I just wanted to try and express to you how a person knows within their heart what they believe is right and ask you how you would deal or cope or face a situation such as this. Lots of religions have their faults and I completely understand how people can lose sight of a god, but I guess for me I feel sadness for you not knowing how you feel in your heart.

Back to Kristen....I sang at a funeral in a Lutheran Church and there was a woman minister..there she was preaching the same prayers over the eucharist that a priest does...does that make it any less holy? Hell no. Yes I am Catholic, that's what I was raised...but am I going to be upset if I raise my children Catholic and they chose to become Presbyterian, hell no. As long as you instill good values within your children they will grow up to be strong individuals fighting to survive in a CRUEL CRUEL world...but that's a whole other topic!

[Jess]

I agree with a lot of what you stated about the Catholic religion. My husband is Catholic and we are rasing our sons Catholic. I however was raised Baptist. When we started our marriage I did consider converting but knew I could not do it with a whole heart. I have too many issues with how the church is ran. I attended Catholic school 6-12 so I do have a pretty decent knowledge base of the religion. Why raise my boys in a religion that I do not fully agree with? I want them to experience religon but make their own choices when they are older if the Catholic religion is for them. If they decide it is or is not for them I will support them in their choice. So as I sit in a pew tonight at the Children's mass I will keep my thoughts of " wow I bet a woman could do this just as well or better" to myself. I am not sure however, if I will be able to not gag on the smell of the incence that will be burning.

[Johnathan]

Sarah, I first want to say thank you for giving me something concrete to respond to, and also for your willingness to stake out a position a little foreign to most of the other commenters.

No miracles. Oh, I'll sometimes use the term metaphorically, to describe something wondrous and amazing, but in no way do I truly mean "miraculous", as in "inexplicable except through supernatural means". There's a self-contradiction minefield right within than definition that I don't choose to wade into now, but it's entirely accurate to say my view is of a universe containing no miracles.

And of course, I can't disagree with you in surmising that had your son died prior to baptism that he'd be in purgatory for eternity. But that's because I don't believe in God, purgatory, or any meaning to baptism. Since _you_ seem to, how do you know it's valid to reject that requirement? You know it in your heart? Fine then, what would you say to someone who knew it in _their_ heart that it _was_ a requirement? You can't both be right. How can you tell who's wrong? How could you be sure your heart isn't lying to you, when it MUST be lying to at least ONE of you? If anything, I'd be inclined to distrust _you_, as you are obviously telling yourself something you desperately _want_ to be true.

If you believe in God, how do you know you can afford _not_ to understand the difficult aspects of your religion? The only freedom I see you exercising is the freedom to lie to yourself and to hope you won't get burned for it. If it makes you feel any better, and it shouldn't, you won't get burned for it, not in any afterlife at any rate. You'll just be wasting a lot of _extremely_ precious _finite_ time that we have in your one and only life.

I'd ask you to please not take my direct manner in stating our strong disagreement as a sign of lack of respect. While I cannot respect your position, I greatly respect your willingness to engage and to elaborate on your position. I only argue when I have a hope to be understood, and I almost always learn something interesting in the process. So thank you again. If you do want to continue this discussion, would you please do me the favor of addressing my point in the third paragraph, about how you can judge the evidence of your "heart"? I'll owe you one.

Oh and for Kristen's sake, maybe eventually we can steer the discussion back to something a little more directly relevant to parenting! I bet she didn't know she was hosting a theological debate discussion board! (I'm grateful for the opportunity to dicuss these issues :-) .)

[Sarah]

I must ask a question to those atheists...how do you explain miracles that happen...just by luck or chance? Do you guys call them miracles? I happen to have a few miracles that include myself that I hold very deep in my heart...one of which happens to be the birth of my 3 sons. How do you explain that? I am a baptized catholic, but I have to admit when my son was born 9 weeks premature and he was in the hospital weighing in at 3 lbs. 11oz, there is no way in hell I could actually think that if he was not baptized he would remain in what they call pergatory(sp) for all eternity. There are some things within my own religion I just don't understand but that's the joy of freedom. Freedom to choose what you practice and take with you and what you don't want leave behind.

[Johnathan]

I'm not hoping to resurrect my main point, which seems to have been lost, but I did want to respond to two issues that Catherine brings up.

The first is, for want of a better word, technical: who ever said that Catholics would "deny children...access to God because of the quote-unquote shortcomings of their parents"? Yes, baptism is a technical requirement, but an illicit (although still valid) Catholic baptism could be performed by _anyone_ (as an EMT I recall that it was even part of our training in case of emergency births). Do you think a Catholic would refuse to baptize a dying child to spite the non-Catholic parents, or is it more likely that they'd just baptize the kid themselves?

The second is somewhat related to my larger point: the Bible is, let's be honest, not the easiest thing to interpret. Or maybe, more accurately, _much_ too easy to interpret as one would choose for any given need. As I mentioned below, almost everyone believes that they and everyone they care about are _surely_ worthy of being saved. And if any religious teaching suggests otherwise, well, then of course it must the religious teaching that's wrong, not them. If I weren't an atheist, and I _actually_ believed that the salvation of my friggin' immortal soul was at stake, I might want to take a few precautions to make sure that I wasn't just leading myself down the primrose path. One of those steps to eliminate self-serving bias would likely be to give _some_ credence to theological experts who had no personal stake in my circumstances. That's precisely the role that religions claim to play, kind of a winnowing into "best-practices", theologically speaking.

Consider an analogy to medicine. Which is the better approach? To say "i can't believe that I would be unfairly afflicted with some condition or other, and my personal interpretation of science is that if I just eat in a generally healthy manner (which coincidentally happens to be the way I eat already), I'll be fine."? Or instead to promote institutions with the expertise and resources needed to investigate thoroughly just how complex (and yes, sometimes seemingly unfair) the relationship between humanity and health?

I won't pretend it's an exact analogy. But the main reason _I_ don't think it's an exact analogy is because I think _all_ religion is bullshit, because there's no God, no soul, no salvation, nothing. But if _you_ believe in it, how can you just assume that you are competent to judge its parameters, dimensions, requirements, etc.? As someone (I forget who) once said: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" ;-)

[Her Bad Mother]

I don't for one minute think that religion should be comfortable. I think that faith necessarily requires a certain amount of worth, and I think that any worthwhile religion should make demands on us as human beings. But I think that meaningful faith requires reflection, and careful consideration of the tenets of faith. And I think that when certain aspects of a religion make us deeply uncomfortable - when certain tenets or rituals or practices or rules really seem to fly in the face of what we understand that religion to stand for (and in the case of Christianity, I - following the words of Pope John Paul - take that to be the model of the life and faith of Jesus Christ), then I think that we are duty-bound as human beings to question it.

The Catholic Church's strict rules on baptism are a case in point - I simply do not, based upon my reading of the Gospels, believe that it is Christian (in the sense of following the teachings of Jesus Christ) to deny children - *especially* dying children - access to God because of the quote-unquote shortcomings of their parents (this was the case with my nephew, Tanner, that I mentioned in the call-in show.) I'm very secure in my place on the fence when it comes to religion, but I do believe firmly that if you are on the faithful side of the fence, you still have to listen to your heart and mind in your consideration and examination of your faith. Because comfortable or not, the unexamined faith is not worth following.

[Occidental Girl]

I think religion should be a community where you are accepted, and where your personal relationship with God will be nourished with knowledge and love.

I agree with you about your gripes, they are the same that I've had with religion, too. I don't believe all churches are the same, even within one denomination.

I have found a great church that is not preachy, but accepting and kind. That's the place for me. I love to learn and to experience personal growth, not sit around and talk about how I'm right, you're wrong, and by the way, guilt guilt guilt. No way!

What's the point of that? Waste of time to be negative.

My pastor said that the Bible is about loving God and your neighbor as yourself, the rest is just commentary.

Going to church is not about scoring brownie points with God. It's about the relationship, not a person's perfect behavior.

In my opinion, anyway. :)

[Ruth]

Of course religion shouldn't be comfortable - in any form it disciplines us and challenges us to work against the natural laziness our souls (minds, feelings, consciences) accept when we're in a comfort zone. Religion, however, should make us stronger in many ways. I know the Bible fairly well, and cannot think of one passage in which mindless obedience is encouraged. Explanations and reasoning abound. The role models are all independent thinkers. The Bible is very clear that God leaves our will to us, to freely choose relating to Him or not.

It is also worth noting that the Catholic Church and other solid institutions that survive time do not pick on individuals as par for the course. Before you get mad - realize that any institution has a prerogative to have clear policies (more and more defined, when constantly challenged). To borrow an example "Gay marriage is not endorsed or even passed over in the Bible, therefore, we do not endorse it in any way ourselves." However, people aren't required to sign in and be "cleared" to be part of the group. It ought to be loudly noted that none of Jesus' recorded words bust the chops of homosexuals or other similarly ostracized individuals - the only group he chewed on and spit out were religious hypocrites. Have fun with that.

I think that a core thought in this topic is noticing the difference between those with a significant role in forming Christian religion -biblical role models- and the more general stereotype of today's free thinker. I think that difference is in what captivates the mind of the individual. When a person is captivated by the thought of God, by the marvels of his creative expression, his willingness to create freedom and give it to his creature, and then be willing to bleed to help us out - well, the natural bent of that individual's active, curious thoughts will be different than someone whose particularly bent is not wanting to be enslaved to others' thoughts...

Sorry if I sound like a know-it-all snob, I just have lots of thoughts of my own...

Finally, for Kristin's last comments - "Love covers a multitude of sins" 1 Peter 4:8, and 1 Cor. 13:2 "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (The entire chapter is fantastic) Your MIL's pleas for confession are about fear, not faith. I've been taught that faith has two enemies: fear and pride. Sometimes good religion is represented, even taught, so very badly.

Jesus was a true renegade - please don't throw the baby out with the nasty straw he lays in!

[Alicia]

If religion makes us uncomfortable because it is unhealthy for us in any way, physically or emotionally, then yes leave it behind. If religion is making us uncomfortable because it is hard work to achieve what we want then maybe it is good to stay or maybe not. As for what I can see of religion any good that it may offer is outweighed by the ill it causes on a personal and global level.

From the age of 15 to 31 I was very dedicated to the Mormon church. Call me gullible but when my church leaders, especially the “prophet”, said they were inspired by God I believed them. I believed them because when I prayed about it I felt warm and fuzzy. Believe it or not I also had a very strong spiritual experience telling me that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I “knew” that the Mormon Church was the only true church on the face of the earth.

I was uncomfortable every time I told my friends that I wouldn’t watch rated “R” movies and every time I wanted to have sex but didn’t because I was saving myself for marriage.
I was uncomfortable when I learned that not only did my church practice polygamy in the past but we would be practicing it in the eternities as well, wow. I was uncomfortable when I worked my but off as a Mormon missionary. I was uncomfortable when I wanted to drink one of those yummy looking (and smelling) cappuccinos but didn’t because I was taught that coffee and tea are evil. I was uncomfortable when I had to change my views about people being gay to fit with God’s so called truth.

The list goes on and on but I was especially uncomfortable when I left my non-Mormon mother crying as I entered the Salt Lake Mormon temple to marry my husband. My mother could not see me get married because she was not a faithful Mormon. I did all this, and much much more, because I truly believed that I was doing what God wanted me to do.

It is a long story how I changed my mind about the Mormon church and am now even questioning the existence of God but after 15 years of very dedicated service I finally noticed how unhealthy it was. One of the unhealthiest things for me was praying daily for forgiveness because I was taught that surely I was sinning every day. After 15 years of this I hated myself. I thought I had a major emotional problem and needed to see a psychiatrist. The funny thing was once I stopped repenting and thinking of myself as a sinner the self-hate disappeared with out any effort at all. The even funnier thing is that unlike what I was taught it is easier to be a more compassionate, non-judgmental, and loving person now than it was when I was a dedicated religious person.

Should religion make us uncomfortable? Well it depends in what way it is making us uncomfortable. Is it making us uncomfortable because we are going against what our heart and common sense are telling us about certain issues (such as gay marriage or birth control) or is it making us uncomfortable because we are doing things that are hard but that we believe will make us a better person, help others, or bring us eternal salvation? Either way I think it is important to step back and try our best to take an honest look at our belief system and see how it is affecting our well being and those around us.

[Christina]

Oh, you've hit a sticky topic here. I was raised with no particular religion - my mom believed in letting me find my own way.

I tried organized religion - even joined the Presbyerian church. But I soon found the service to be hollow. Singing some hymns and listening to the minister give his pep talk of the day didn't do much for me.

Now, my dad's side of the family is fiercely Catholic - they believe, they attend Mass, they go out of their way for their religion. But many of the older generation are just sheep - they repeat what they're told, and never really question anything. If the Pope were to change his mind and make birth control allowed, they'd just shrug and say, OK, I guess God allows it now.

My cousins, on the other hand, actively question their religion, and I think that's healthy. They have chosen to remain Catholic, but they don't necessarily agree with everything the church tells them. Sometimes questioning your beliefs can lead to an even stronger affirmation of your faith.

As for me, I don't agree with any one particular religion, so I don't attend any kind of church. I believe in the basic beliefs you mentioned, Kristen: "helping others, doing good, and living life to its fullest". Which is what most religions boil down to, anyway. I can't imagine that if there is a God, he/she is someone who would be so petty as to damn someone for not saying the right prayers or attending church each Sunday.

And I keep re-examining my own beliefs, questioning why the world is the way it is. That is the uncomfortable part - the not knowing what is the real answer. Because no one really knows. We could all die and find out the Jehovah's Witnesses had it right all along. There's no way to know for sure.

[Lena]

Your title sums up this topic perfectly. My answer: no. It's supposed to be COMFORTING.

[Ashley]

What she said!

[Sadie]

Hmmm, Sarah seems really hung up on the tradition and routine of the Church, and how people should be more respectful of tradition and routine. She wants her sons 'to follow what [she's] taught them from what [she] knows.' Yet, nowhere in her replies is there anything about BELIEVING IN or UNDERSTANDING the tenets and practices of one's religion...just "follow tradition." That, to me, is unacceptable. There are many many people just like Sarah, too, who belive that if you just show up every Sunday and put your tithe in the basket and hit all the sacraments and teach your kids the words to the prayers so you can all chant them in unison, then you are somehow superior to people who choose to celebrate their faith any other way. God gave me the free will to choose to take my kid to hockey practice instead of church; wasn't that cool of Him?

[Sarah]

This is for Kimba....Thank you for that, sometimes I try to explain my thoughts but just don't know how to get the words out. I can't agree with you more about faith and religion being seperate. I also agree with you on religion not being a matter of convenience. If you feel strongly about something you SHOULD work at it, that should apply to everything in a persons life not just their religious beliefs. Unfotunately most people today schedule their religion around whether or not their child has a soccer game that day or baseball practice. What happened to the dedication to people's faith in god through their religious traditions. They dismiss what they routined for so many years in exchange for a video taping of their 5 year old at hockey practice.

[Kimba]

I find it utterly ridiculous to say that religion should be convenient. Of course it shouldn't be convenient! It should be about effort and some personal sacrifice. That's the problem with America these days, everyone wants what's easiest, what's most convenient to them. We're a disposable society with disposable values. No one is willing these days to make the extra efforts, be it in school, work, relationships or religion.

That said, I think most people are also confusing the difference between faith and religion. Religion is man-made, and therefore ANY religion is going to have fault. Faith is your belief in a higher power, whether you want to call that God, Alla, goddess, or banana, its about putting trust and faith into something, someone more knowledgeable and powerful than you.

But people want someone else to blame, so organized religion becomes the target more often than not. The Catholic church especcially, as they are one of the oldest, most widespread and dominant religions on the planet...and yet they have endured. But there has been far more corruption within other religions and religious leaders, as well. But it seems easy to overlook the "crazy televangelists" or "backwoods ministers" because Hey, we apparently expect them to be crazy and do stupid things. Let's not forget that the Reformation started with a crazed king, people taking Luther's words and making them something other than he intended, and Knox who married a child and kept her captive...clearly these were sane men from whom to base religions on!

(Fact of the matter is the Catholic church had, under our previous pope, a very liberal view on women's and gay rights. Most people haven't bothered to know that.)

I am FAR from some Bible-thumpin' religious fanatic, but I do feel that our society chooses the easy way out more times than not. And that usually is without solid knowledge and instead acts with emotion.

[Sarah]

Isn't it funny how most religious debates always end up about the Catholic church? I grew up in Cherry Hill, NJ, one of the largest Jewish populations and I have a lot of negative to say about them. Let's face it, no matter what religion you are or what you practice most people do it nowadays for their convenience. I questioned my faith in god several times over the 5 miscarriages I had. Where is god when you are suffering and can't understand what's happening to you? That truly lies within yourself and for me I dove deeper into my faith and knew that he wanted me closer to him. If that's how I got through my pain than it's for me. We can sit here and question the teachings (primarily of the Catholic church) till the end of time, but ultimately it comes down to the true beliefs within yourself.

[Kate]

Raised a Catholic, but far from a church-goer for the last 20 some years, I was appalled when I read in the news a few months ago that Catholic Charities in Boston was ceasing adoptions since Massachusetts allows gay marriages. Have you ever heard of something so asinine (sp?)!! Let's punish the poor children who need parents because of some whacko religious beliefs. I was embarassed to say I had been raised Catholic and made the decision that day to ex-communicate myself from anything to do with them. We ended up baptising my second son in the Episcopal church, that has a gay bishop and female priests. But I still don't really go to Church anyway, so who knows what I believe.

[Kristen]

I just don't think you need to be celibate to be a good priest. And I don't think you need to be a man either.

And I think if you're a woman you should be able to marry a woman.

Certainly, there are other religious figures that are not perfect -- but the Catholic church has indeed been involved in a huge coverup that's extremely disturbing to me.

I think traditons without guilt are wonderful -- and I think if folks experience religion in that way then certainly it's serving its purpose.

For me personally (sort of like HBM's spouse), it's an all or nothing endeavor for me. I have an extremely hard time going to church and going through the motions when I know that I'm just "not that into it." -- or that I think it's a bunch of hooey to have to recite some LONG creed. FOR WHAT? How does that bring me closer to God?

I just wonder if for many people, there are other ways to become spiritual beings -- to find meaning in life -- and to find your path.

And let's face it, it doesn't help that I live with a bunch of total hypocrites -- they live in total denial and yet HAVE to go to church on Sunday. What does church do for them? NOTHING. They live their live exactly the same.

And that's what I don't get.

[Mary-LUE]

I think my views on this question are best summed up by this quote:

"The gospel is meant to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." Garrison Keillor

[Chase]

Religion has been a major player in my life lately in that I don't believe in God at all and the guy I'm dating is very churchy.

That in itself is a long story, so I won't go into it here...but I had something to add about religion being comfortable.

I think that if someone is 100% comfortable with religion and their faith in all aspects, they aren't thinking enough about it. Having the answer "it's God's will" for everything without a blink of an eye, in my opinion, is a cop-out and just way to cover your ears and say LA LA LA LA LA LA to the intricacies of living.

Even the guy I'm dating says that in the Bible (don't know where), it warns against blind faith in anything.

I think everyone (the faithful and the non) should realize that questioning is OK. If, when, and how you come up with your answers is fine...but don't just close your eyes and shrug and say 'oh well, God's will'.

Like someone else mentioned, everyone molds religion to fit their own reality anyway...thus the gazillion different churches/doctrines/interpretations. To think one way is the only right way is almost absurd.

Amen.

[Johnathan]

Notice how some people are approaching this question. Broadly paraphrased, they say something to the effect of: Whatever the answer is, I _do_ know that the religion I choose had better fit with my pre-existing values, and had better deem me and everyone I care about to be worthy of salvation. And it better not make much of a demand on my time, ninety minutes per week being far too disruptive. Basic feminist values, tolerance, and the assurance of endless forgiveness? These are not to be questioned. But annoying rules, sacraments, and centuries of tradition? Well sorry, organized religion, but you just don't seem to be in step with the political/ethical attitudes of the last thirty years or so, so you'll have to go.

It seems more like people are shopping for an accessory than looking for the answers. And I guess that's because most people believe they already have the answers. Not the answers to questions like "What is the point of suffering?" and "What is the standard for right and wrong", but the real important questions like "Would I let God Himself tell me that birth control is sinful?" (A: No.) and "I'm definitely going to heaven, right?" (A: Definitely! XOXOX). With those questions already decided, all that's left is to figure out which church seems friendliest, has the best activities for the kids, has decent parking, and other similarly weighty theological matters. Such is the ascendancy of comfort over theological accuracy.

Here's the problem with that mindset that's most relevant to parents. We want our children to be engaged, questioning, critical thinkers. But in this area, concerning the most basic issues of human nature, humanity's place in the universe, and morality, the fuzzily "spiritual people" have very little to offer than "Well, here's what I believe." And if their children grow up to believe something very different, possibly very dangerously different, and they justify it with "Well, it's what I believe.", who's responsible for telling them that their positions on fundamental questions of life and ethics required no more basis or justification then their whims?

Not that I really think religion does a much better job on this score. I'm an atheist, and I think that the justifications that religion provides are essentially based on falsehoods. However, they at least follow the model of saying "Okay, I'm gonna figure out what life and the world is all about, and then figure out how best to live in it.", rather than "Here's how I want things to be, and I expect reality to fall in line with my desires."

Please don't get me wrong: I'm a supporter of the aforementioned basic feminist values, and tolerance, and birth control too :-) . As I matter of fact, they matter enough to me that I will take care to justify them to my children in the facts of human nature. To neglect to do so is the ethical equivalent of saying "You've got the chocolate, the vanilla, and the strawberry ice cream. But in this family, we _really_ like the strawberry. So you like strawberry too, right, kid?".

(Thanks for the indulgence and the opportunity at what has wound up amounting almost to an unsolicited guest post. Sorry Kristen! I _really_ appreciate how you're willing to approach such a wide range of issues, and with more humor than facilitated by this dour topic. :-) )

[Sarah]

I consider myself to be a pretty strict practicing catholic but let's face it in every religion no matter what it may be, nowadays, everyone practices it until it is INCONVENIENT for them. I was never raised feeling guilt that I didn't go to confession and if I still receive communion my god will not strike me down. You take your religion and make it your own. I have 3 sons and they've all been baptized into the catholic church. Yes, I plan for them to receive all their sacraments, will they continue practicing it later? That's for them to know and to take what I've taught them from what I knew. It's more about tradition and where you feel comfortable within yourself. Religion and politics are 2 subjects that for centuries to come will never meet eye to eye. Someone will always be trying to save the world and the other trying to destroy it.

[Sarah]

Perhaps you've overlooked the fact that maybe people are just ignorant to perceive a non-married man taking on priesthood because they are sexually confused. Of course, why else would a sexual human choose a life of celebacy unless of course he's gay and doesn't want to come out to his parents. I think that is pretty shallow. My cousin chose to become a preist, he was ordained almost 2 years ago. He's a straight, good looking, very friendly guy and he was raised in a strict catholic household. He truly felt god's calling. So he must be gay, right? Honestly we don't truly know what is going on in peoples minds, hearts and heads and I'll be damned if I judge some one based on the path they choose. Or stereo type all preists based on past history of sexual abuse. Rabbi Newlander hired someone to murder his wife for god's sake, yes it was on the news, but no one accuses him of being gay or questions whether or not another rabbi will kill again. The Catholic Church is probably the largest widespread religion of choice so why not criticize. All in all I say follow tradition and find yourself within it.

[Jenn]

hear, hear! Belief is personal and, while perhaps not easy, I think it should be comfortable. I am not comfortable with most of what passes for organised religion, though I do like some ideas from many. And, it's rather amazing how many of the ideas are similar...

[Mrs. Chicky]

The debate over religion is one that I usually stay out of. I'm a live and let live kind of woman, and living in a liberal state makes that easy, but I know that many others don't share my point of view when it comes to picking religions. Since I have a Catholic upbringing I can understand their side to a point: Can we hold ourselves accountable and be good people without the structure of religion and the threat of a higher power passing judgement on our actions? I don't really have an answer to that but I do think that religion is necessary, not for everyone, but for many. It helps people to have faith in something. However, when people (ahem, the whole confession thing? Pfft.) manipulate religion to suit their own agendas? That's not faith, that's an excuse. A get out of jail free card. It doesn't work that way.

[Kristina]

I've been struggling with this, and I'll answer in the form of a question.

If you created a universe, would you want the beings in that universe to concentrate on worshiping you and following your commands? Or, would you rather them to spend their energy on treating each other and their world with love, kindness and respect and appreciating all that is around them?

The second idea is much more comfortable, but it happens to be my personal answer.

[mothergoosemouse]

I don't think any sort of existential questioning is going to be comfortable. As I've explained to Tacy, there are a lot of difficult and scary questions out there that we haven't yet answered. Some people turn to God. Some people turn to science. And some people turn to a combination of both.

But I think it's important to find a way to answer those questions to your personal satisfaction, keeping in mind that everyone may not share the same answers.