Being Good for the Sake of Being Good and Not Because You'll Go to Hell if You Don't

I've got way too much to say about religion and not enough time.

Fear. Comfort. Wars. Peace. Death. Eternal Life. Guilt.

Religion served me well when I had nowhere else to turn. It also made me feel incredibly guilty and angry at times. And it continues to be an issue of great confusion, not only in my life as a person, but in my role as a parent desiring to raise good citizens, caring humans, and empathic people.

And while I understand the role of religion (or at least, its original purpose), I truly believe that spirituality can be achieved without religion. That my life can have meaning without Jesus, Bibles, or anything else.

But by losing religion, I lose a lot of the American culture -- not as a whole but as part of my family, most of whom are greatly tied to the church. And I wonder if my children, while perhaps not missing out on the fire, brimstone, and confessions, might miss out on the community and the goodness of believing in something greater.

So tonight, I welcome guests Julie as well as Dale McGowan, editor of Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion. He'll be joined by contributing author and well-known humanist writer, blogger, and mom Noell Hyman. We'll be discussing various topics, including explaining religious holidays, death and dying, and the notion of being good just for the sake of being good.

You can download via iTunes or listen live here. 9-10pm EST

Call in and join the discussion: (646) 915-8634. Or leave a comment or drop me an email. 

Comments

[Joe Norman]

You don't believe in "religion" or God or Jesus or Buddha or Hare Krishna or Islam.....fine. It's your perfect right to believe or not to believe.

BUT....what is the objective standard for truth for you? What entity or philosophy has established a set of values and an ethical and moral field on which you live your life. If you believe it's wrong to murder or steal or vandalize, then tell me what standard of behavior makes them wrong, and what the objective origin of that standard is. Even if you say you believe in nothing, you have even then subscribed to a belief.
Again...what is the objective standard for truth, and where does it come from?

[Phoenix]

Dana, I actually do respect your opinion. But I just don't believe what you believe. In the, well lets use the bible (for lack of a better word in the moment) as a quick example. In the bible as a woman I am less than a man. I was put here to serve men, no matter what they want or ask, just because I was born a girl. I'm just not willing to except that as truth. If religion in the United States was the way it is, say in Afganistan, I could be killed all in the name of religion, becuase I'm sitting here expressing my beliefs. I could be killed all in the name of God. You say that's not the way it's supposed to be. But people kill in the name of God every single day. Wars are started in the name of God, innocent lives shattered every day in the name of God and good people every day are told their love is not true because they love someone of the sme sex, all in the name of God. And I just can't believe in organized religion because of that. It's in every religion in misc. ways, albiet different ways. When I was 13, I went to church with my grandpa one Sunday. The sermon was on abortion and how all people who had one are going to hell and their fetuses to purgatory. As a 13 year old girl who had just hit puberty, being told that the choices I made or didn't make in the future were not okay in Gods eyes, was just BS to me. I was just a child and a good one at that. I'd never done anything worse than talking back to my mother. But I was made to feel dirty that day and ashamed of something that even now, 15 years later, I've never had to experience. And all because I was a girl, they never said a dam thing about the men who are also ressponsible for those abortions. You say religion isn't confusing, but to me it is. It's the extreme oxymoron. You're right I haven't practiced a religion. But that doesn't mean I was not taught goodness. That doesn't mean I wasn't taught respect of self and others or in truth to believe in something greater than me. But for me, goodness and organized religion are two seperate things and I think that saying my beliefs being outside of what a religion would suggest is okay, means I'm as bad as a cult, is utter nonsense. I just...yeah I'm done, I've taken up too much of Kristen's space. Sorry Kristen. Anyway, in my opinion there IS a possibility to teach kids to be good and to do things that are right, just because without religion.

[dana]

Religions do not cause wars, people do. And any person who uses relgion as an excuse to bring violence and murder onto others is not serving God and must remember that.

Phoenix, I know very well what I'm talking about. Your comment only serves to show that perhaps you've studied other religions, but haven't truly practiced any. Or maybe you're just very intolerant of the beliefs of others.

Religions have set devotions and rituals. They are not all the same and they only become confusing when people try to interpret them in their own individual way.

I can't adapt my religion to suit my tastes because then it wouldn't be a religion, it would be more of a cult or a social group, like Scientology for example.

You have every right not to believe in God. Just as I have every right to defend my beliefs.

I would never force religion upon anyone, but I'm certainly not going to eat shit politely with a knife and fork because it's the PC thing to do.

I respect your opinions, but I certainly hope you repect mine in return.

[wife soup]

Wow! I will definitely be downloading this. I am right there with all of you who have commented. Such a difficult topic.

[Missy]

Have you checked out Unitarian-Universalist Church? You can believe whatever you want. My church has Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, agnostics, Pagans and atheists! Gay couples are also welcome. But it did keep the "good" part of religion - self-searching, fellowship, intellectual pursuit, progressive ideas.

And the "Sunday School" - they call it Relgious Education - teaches history of ALL religions. xo

[ragtopday]

I can't wait to listen to the discussion. Like most of the commentors, I don't participate in any church or religion, but feel like my kids and I could be missing out on a community. I also struggle at times with certain religious based questions my kids come home with, such as what is heaven, and who is god? I usually respond with some variation of "some people believe..." or "I believe..." but I'd love to hear what others do.

[fairly odd mother]

Get thee to a Unitarian Universalist church. I gave up fire, brimstone and hell and gained understanding, real dialogue and kindness. One of the best decisions I've ever made and I'm proud to bring my children along for this ride.

BTW, my husband ALWAYS repeats a version of the title of this post when he talks about formal religion.

[nutmeg]

I'm so living this right now. I'll definitely be listening.

[Kristen]

I don't think we're denying that religion can work well for some people.

But when it's forced on you via societal norms that are clearly based in Western Religion or via people who judge/opine due to their own religious views, then it's a problem.

Clearly believing in GOD or one specific form (i.e religion) vs another has caused wars, guilt, hate, etc... And so, you can't blame folks for wanting to steer clear of God and religion -- and perhaps finding their own means of spirituality -- god or not.

[Phoenix]

I fully believe you can teach spirituality and goodness to your children without religion. Heck, I'm living proof. First though, you have to decide what you believe and that can truly be the hard part. It's easy for someone like me who was raised without religion, not so easy for someone who was raised believing in fire and brimstone. Somehow, I think you'll figure it out. You seem to be doing a good job.

Dana - Trust me when I say religion is not simple and it is confusing. Well maybe it is if you only believe it your way and don't look at all sides. But I've studied it all, Christianity, Muslim, Buddhism, Judaism and hell yes it's confusing. There's not a right way and a wrong way to be, it's not that black and white. To make a blanket statement like that just shows you don't know what you're talking about.

[Mommy off the Record]

"I truly believe that spirituality can be achieved without religion."

I totally agree with this. My pov is that religion is a vehicle to achieve spirituality. If it helps you, great, but if not, you can still be a good person without it.

[Amanda]

To dana:

There are people who don't believe in gods... in which case, it would be kind of silly to teach our children to thank them.
---

I think that it's sad that there are people who do not believe in gods, or organized religion, but who still go to church for the "community". There are plenty of communities out there that have nothing to do with church. Get involved with your school, or get people together who share a hobby of yours.

If the main "community" in your area was a BDSM group, would you take your child there so they could get a sense of "community"? No, of course not - there are other communities, and other ways to socialize.

I'm not saying that people who go to church are wrong - you can believe whatever you want to believe and socialize with whoever you want. But church is not the only way to meet people and develop lasting connections - so if you have no reason to go to church other than to meet people, don't go.

[dana]

No one is forced to believe in God. No one is forced to practice a religion. No one is forced to feel guilty. We make these choices ourselves.

Religion is not horrible. Religion is not confusing. We make it that way.

What is so wrong with giving thanks to God for our Blessings? Why is it so horrible to teach our children about Him?

Is it uncool to believe in God? Are we afraid to offend others? Are we worried that we're not being politically correct? Are we scared of what others might think?

I can't help but feel alienated every time someone discusses ways to "not believe in God, and still be a good person."

Who is God hurting? Why are so many people against him?

[mothergoosemouse]

Kyle is reading "God Is Not Great" too - just arrived last weekend.

Looking forward to tonight!

[TB]

It's one of the few things Jeff and I can't find middle ground on. I'm agnostic and I think it would be hypocritical for me to send Myles to church, but Jeff wants him to have that sense of community. I think it would be better to provide him with all the information when he's old enough and let him make his own decision.
That's not to say we can't still teach him to be a good person and a good citizen of the human race. You don't need religion for that.

[TB]

It's one of the few things Jeff and I can't find middle ground on. I'm agnostic and I think it would be hypocritical for me to send Myles to church, but Jeff wants him to have that sense of community. I think it would be better to provide him with all the information when he's old enough and let him make his own decision.
That's not to say we can't still teach him to be a good person and a good citizen of the human race. You don't need religion for that.

[metro mama]

Sounds interesting. I'm currently reading God is Not Great--he makes a very good case for doing away with religion.