Imposition Part 2: Confrontation

Against my better, well-rested non-hormonal judgment, I decided to talk to my mom about God and the penis. (Consequently, isn't that an Alanis Morrisette song?).

Had I had some sleep and not been jacked up on hormones, I would have used half a brain and just let it go, because the truth of the matter is, my kids see my mom twice a year, if that. But that takes maturity and fortitude -- apparently neither of which I have at this point in time.

I spent a good many years in therapy figuring out that talking to my mom about stuff like this probably isn't the best route. It's not that my mom doesn't listen or that my mom comes from an undermining place.

No, that's my in-laws.

My mom, on the other hand, listens and comes from a very good Jesus-Loves-You-Except-those-Gays place.

The truth is she just doesn't really get it. Limited. Totally clueless.

We really weren't so peeved about the penis thing (although it was pretty gross). And we really didn't have an issue about the Poppy Bill in heaven thing. In fact, apparently Quinlan was the one who brought it up. Truthfully, I can live with heaven. And I know that my presence every day compared to the twice yearly presence of my mom will carry some weight with my daughter.

But what I obviously couldn't just "live" with was the Bible story book that she packed in her bag to read to her.

And what's worse, I couldn't live with her explanation as to why.

"Well, she's got to get it somewhere, and you're not going to be exposing her to anything."

There were other things before that came out, like we want to be the filter of information for those types of important things in life, and we're not going to shelter her from religion in fact she's probably going to send her to a Catholic preschool this Fall (oh the irony), and we're open to talking with her about everything and anything when it's age appropriate.

And then she said something about how we tell her about Santa and the Easter Bunny and so what's so different about Jesus hanging on the cross (the true and important meaning of Easter, particularly for a three year old - oy). And it's just like any other book so what's the big deal... you oversensitive daughter who just wants to pick a fight with me because you're a hateful heathen child who decided to leave the church and this little part of me lost some love for you over it.

Okay. So not all that. But that's what I heard.

And so, after we hung up and I started formulating a response to what will either be a long no-paragraph email about how mean I was or better, a phone call sometime this summer with the same sentiment I realized why I was so offended by the damn book. And her prayers. And her Jesus talk.

It's because I don't want her Jesus and God for my daughter. Because she seems to forget that her Jesus and her God royally screwed me over. They made her stay in a hateful abusive marriage. They made her stand by and watch while I was verbally and sometimes physically abused.

They made her choose him over me.

And I never ever ever want that to be the God my daughter sees.

So it's not really about the book. It's about what that book represents. I realize that I don't necessarily have a problem with religion. I just have a problem with hers.

Comments

[Lez]

I'm sorry, I am new to reading your blog (I just came across it today), but this statement:

"My mom, on the other hand, listens and comes from a very good Jesus-Loves-You-Except-those-Gays place."

Caught me a bit off gaurd. Does that mean you believe this is a good stance to have?

I'm just curious. My parents are very religious, I am not. But they still believe that "Jesus" loves me just as much as everyone else, since he was the one who made me. Oh, btw, I am a perfectly normal and well adjusted 31 year old lesbian.

Since I have no idea of your stance on the subject, I wanted to ask.

-Lez

[Mom101]

Kudos on such introspection - it's got to be hard to take a good look at yourself and your life and figure out what it is that's been bugging you so much, let alone to be able to express it to the world. I can see how being wounded by religion leads to a rejection of it. Maybe this understanding will help you get to a more peaceful understanding with your mom. Or...maybe not.

[Jamie E]

wow, very well put!
I didn't want the religion my mom had either....turns out she misinterpreted it grossly! The whole "do as I say, not as I do" got old QUICK. A couple of days sure gives insight eh?

[heatherw]

Doesn't it seem strange for a person who believes in God and Jesus to liken them to the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause?
I have issues with my parents over the religion of my youth. And because I keep a blog to communicate with family, I have to avoid talking about religion because it's the elephant in the living room.
Good for you for writing about it. Thanks for your insight.

[RubiaLala]

I am so sorry that you have to go through this. It is very unfortunate, and not a good example of how a Christian should act. IMO.

[the new girl]

Oh, there's a little Don Quixote in you, for sure.

I love the insight in this post.

That therapy has TOTALLY PAID OFF!

[Anonymous]

I wonder, what if you exposed your children to Jesus and God, so that their exposure to Jesus and God isn't only "her Jesus and God"? I don't know, but even though you have rejected your past religious upbringing associated with your mom, I don't get the sense that you're atheist, nor even that you have rejected Christianity and Jesus and God. I also found it interesting in your other blog post that Quinlan already had a concept of God when you talked to her about angels.

Like many mother-daughter relationships, I too have issues with my mom and have in the past rejected things I associated with her, to which I attributed as causing me to suffer. Nowadays I don't necessarily equate those things with the harm I saw. This is partly from seeing those "things" in other people's lives where they do good. So perhaps it isn't the "thing" itself but how different people live it out. Rejecting the "thing" entirely actually probably caused me to miss out.

Regarding organized religion, I recently sampled sermons from several different churches, and I find that they are all different. (Many have mp3s and podcasts, videos, or transcripts nowadays.) The only one that seems to fit with me, perhaps not surprisingly is the church a friend attends and recommended to me. It happens that I asked her for recommendations because in her I see Christianity working in a way that I most admire.

[Going Crunchy]

I really have nothing productive to add because I'm just overwhelmingly wowed by the content of amazing critical thought from your readers.

I feel like I've learned a good deal about my own Mom just by reading your feedback. Thanks so much. Shannon

[Zelda]

Ugh. I think about these things all the time (I don't have kids yet, but my family is very Catholic, whereas my fiance and I are very...agnostic, I guess). It's frustrating to have someone else making major decisions about major influences such as religion in the lives of your children.

On a side note, I saw somewhere that there's a "Sunday school" for atheists/agnostics in San Fran, I think. Basically gives people who aren't religious a place to send their kids on Sunday morning, meet for coffee, whatever. The kids learn about the religions in a factual sense, but more importantly learn reasons for caring for others and being "good people" (besides doing so out of a fear of burning in an imaginary fire pit under the earth).

Anyway. I wish they had that in my town (fat chance). It'd be nice not to feel like a heathen/outcast because I don't believe in religion.

[Johnathan]

There seems to be something revealing in your choice of words, "They made her choose him over me." Because of course, there was no "they" actually making your mother do anything. As your posts and your commenters amply demonstrate, people project the attributes they want from God onto Him, the vast majority here wanting nothing more than salvation and solace with no strings attached (a sort of Heavenly Friend With Benefits).

But your mother was doing the same thing. I don't know her, so I couldn't begin to guess the reasons why she didn't protect herself and you as she should have. But it was her own choice for her own reasons, not orders from God she was obeying under protest. The God she worships, who would excuse and justify -- even demand -- the choices she made, was the God she chose to worship because He was a expression of the values she already brought to the table. And you blaming it on "her" God merely absolves her from the responsibility she should rightfully bear, and shields you from voicing the true depths of betrayal you feel for the person who brought you into the world.

On the positive side of all this, you have little to fear that her attempts at religious influence will corrupt your children. The sort of life lessons and worldview they see reflected in the people they admire will undoubtedly be what they bring to their understanding of God, if they even have a need for a deity in their later life.

(The real f'd-up part of all of this is that your mother has as much reason for really believing in her hardass God as you do in really believing in your "It's all good" God (which is none at all), which is why you'll probably never come to common ground on the theology, short of one of you changing your personality. It's not like like one of you will point to a key Bible passage and the other will say "Oh, nowwwww I see!". This religious disagreement is just you and your mother sending in God and Jesus to fight the proxy war of your personality conflict.)

[Sarah]

I come from a family of Catholic Drunks whose women end up carrying all the slack while the men lay around complaining about how the world cheated them. My mother is famous for saying "he's a good person and he loves you."

I agree that I don't want the God who leads people to look at the world that way. I took it a whole nother step and decided that I don't want any "God."

When my son wanted to know about "Old-Jesus" (I don't know where he got that), I decided to take him to church. Not knowing any other way, I took him to a Catholic Mass. He made it to communion before he insisted that we had to go, "I don't like it here," he said. I have no problem taking him to church if he wants to, but am extra happy that he has chosen to stay away.

[radiomom]

What can I say about church? I haven't been nor have I set foot in one for a service in 2 years. I too am of the belief that I WANT my kids to go to sunday school..and take from it what they want to....just not from the church I happen to be a member at. It turned. Suddeny it seemed rather NOSEY more than CARING and nurturing. Political, rather than accepting--and the pastor, while very NICe-was possibly the most boring speaker in the universe. We are "shopping" right now for a new place to be...after a long hiatus.

My mother in law told me that my children would be "heathens" without religion. Oh well....they will be heathens she won't have to see then.

[submommy]

God and Jesus would never expect anyone to throw their own children under the bus for the sake of preserving their marriage to an abuser.

It sounds to me like your Mom pinned her lack of strength on God & Jesus. Instead of saying "enough!" She said "God wants me to stay, so Kristen is just going to have to deal with it."

Totally, utterly and completely ridiculous. And again - that's been your MOM'S interpretation of God's plan. As Maresi said - we have freedom of choice.

I've mentioned before that I am Christian, but honestly, if hubby touched our kids in an abusive way, I'd burn in hell before I stayed in the marriage. God gave me children to protect them and raise them to be loving, productive human beings. Not for me to allow damage to them because marriage - no matter how awful - trumps safety.

She stood by and did nothing. And evil was allowed to flourish. Perhaps she's trying to patch herself back together by "saving" your kids.

[Motherhood Uncensored]

We're considering Catholic school for a few reasons:

a) It's not an Arch Diocese -- it's a small (read 5 kids in a class) family-started school.

b) It's 10 minutes away. The other schools we looked at around over 45 minutes.

c) Everyone who goes there, Catholic or not, loves it.

d) We're not averse to religion, just done on our own terms. Catholic education, when done well, can be really fabulous.

e) Since we were out of town from Jan - just now, we missed almost every preschool application deadline, so it's one of our few options.

f) We can actually afford it and still live in our house.

[dana]

I feel very sad that your mother stayed in a marriage because she felt she had to, for the sake of her religion (I'm assuming it's Catholic?) which subjected you to abuse and torment from that relationship.

I'll never know the circumstances and I don't think I need to. You were put through living hell and there's no excuse for that.

As a Catholic myself, that infuriates me. But please know that many Catholic churches have evolved and have support networks for mothers and children who are abused by the husband/father. Divorces/annulments are granted without question, and without guilt. No marriage can work if it's filled with abuse and children should never be subjected to that.

[ScientistMother]

Parents are tough, especially ones that you have difficulty communicating with or living with. I don't have the best relationship with my parents either, as they have 0 support for my choices and the path I have chosen. After 7 years of trying to get them to understand, I have realized that its pointless, they hear and think what they want. So do you know what I do with voicemails, emails telling me what a bad, insensitive daughter I am? I ignore them, and don't respond. Like you said, you kids are with you 363 days and your mom 2. You have way more influence on their impression. Hugs!

[Christina]

You have the right to determine what religious education your children receive. Plain and simple.

I'm kind of glad that my dad no longer speaks to us. He always tried to push religion on me, and I'm sure he would have tried to do it with my girls, too.

[Chicky Chicky Baby]

If my mom were alive we'd be having the same conversations. And I'd lose most of the time. God is tough but Moms are tougher.

[anna]

With you feeling the way you do, why are you thinking of sending Q to Catholic School? Trust me there is a lot more parent participation these days and you may want to rethink that decision. Your feelings will surely surface and will only cause confusion in you child.

[LiteralDan]

I wonder how I'll teach my kids about religion while divorcing it from my biases against organized religion and the long-standing corruption that takes advantage of people in their weakest and most trusting state.

I wish they could have some kind of faith along with a healthy skepticism, but I think that's hard to develop.

[TheFeministBreeder]

I have no plans on talking to my kids about "God" except to say that he's a fantasy created in the minds of people who need an excuse for something. My aunt thinks that if I really believed that, I wouldn't have a problem "exposing" my kids to religion and then letting them make their own choices. I suppose that's true, but organized religion isn't about "choices" - it's about brainwashing. That's the problem.

[maresi]

Anyone who believes that God would rather they and their children stay undivorced than escape abuse or neglect of any kind, especially after putting in effort towards healing the marriage is sorely mistaken. I'm sorry that societal and religious pressures and attitudes caused such lasting pain in your life. You don't have to believe me, and of course you don't need my permission to ignore/disagree/print it out and run over it with your car, but I know that pain, sadness, and sorrow are NOT what God wants for you and your family. So often it's false and hypocritical "christians" that ruin the chances of hurting people like yourself accepting that God loves you. And that makes me very, very sad.

[Lisa]

These paragraphs?

"It's because I don't want her Jesus and God for my daughter. Because she seems to forget that her Jesus and her God royally screwed me over. They made her stay in a hateful abusive marriage. They made her stand by and watch while I was verbally and sometimes physically abused.

They made her choose him over me.

And I never ever ever want that to be the God my daughter sees. "

I would cut and paste these ad infinitum until the message sinks in.

[Charline]

I completely understand where you're coming from. This topic hasn't come up YET, but I'm sure it will. Mine are still very young.

My parents won't be a concern because my mother passed away and my father doesn't care about religion. But, my mother-in-law, on the other hand, DOES care
(and is still alive). :) And she just happens to be kind of psycho, like most.

So, I am waiting for that moment and dreading it. We're going to a UU church now, so she sent my husband a bible in the mail. At least she hasn't said anything about us going to Hell yet. But, I'm sure that will come!

[canape]

My mother is a minister and my brother works in a church as well.

After watching how the church treats their employees and how the members of the church suck the life out of the people who are there to serve them? I wasn't so thrilled about church anymore.

However. I want for my child to grow up in a church. For me, it's the traditions and the ceremony of it all. The music. The celebrations. And the hope that he will learn how to be a better person.

I'm impressed that you can verbalize so clearly what it was that clinched your rejection of your mother's religion. I think a lot of people have trouble differentiating.

[Amy in Ohio]

You're a brave woman. I really admire you.

[Kim]

I understand your anger and frustration with HER God. I have been in similar situations. But, try to remember that one of the greatest things about God/ Jesus is that we are free to make our own decisions; good, bad or indifferent, just as your Mother did years ago. And even greater still, is that if we do infact make the "wrong" choices, we can be forgiven - All we have to do is ask. So maybe instead of totally turning your back on HER God, perhaps you should seek understanding and acceptance and try to do as God has done for us, Forgive. I hope that you do find hope, love, peace and forgiveness with God.

[Stacey]

I have a friend who has the same problem you have. It took her a very long time to get over her anger at what happened to her while her parents were in a 'fundy phase' as she puts it. She made herself attend a variety of worship services and speak with various pastors because she didn't want to pass her grudge onto her kids. She is still very suspicious of anything Jesus related, but no longer is immediately hostile to it. Your mom's Jesus and God are only one version of the. Christianity interprets Jesus' will in a variety of ways.

We are teaching our children that the Divine exists and is worshiped and loved in a variety of ways. They have faith in their lives, just not an organized religion. I think as long as I am not denying them the right to pursue their religious interests I am not doing them any disservice.

[Jane]

We are struggling with the same things in our house. My husband and I were both raised in very catholic homes and now we are both atheists. But religion is everywhere. I want to teach our children about ALL religions so they can make an informed decision for themselves when they are old enough to care. But it's very important to be open about it, to present the facts in a non-judgmental way and in an age-appropriate way. Funny, I originally thought that taking god out of my life would make it infinitely better and easier - then I had kids and almost wish I could just use it as the crutch that it is.

[Kayla]

That was so very well said.

In my home we are religious folk, yup we go to Church every sunday, my daughter attends ccd classes and I teach ccd classes. However, MY GOD, will never have my daughter stay in any situation she does not want to be in. I am teaching my daughter religion but I am also teaching her how to be a strong independant girl...

hugs
K

[Heather]

I was brought up without much religion and I craved it. So I think that SciFiDad's comment about omitting religion is a valid one. Kids want what others have that seems to be missing in their lives.

[SciFi Dad]

I went to Catholic school for 14 years, and look at how I turned out.

(No wait. You probably don't want to think too long on that.)

Religion is a very complex issue, not just for people like us who were raised in a faith and later abandoned (or at least moved away from) it, but for those whom we perceive as "devout".

We struggle with similar questions from my family (although we benefit tremendously from my mother's botched attempt to control me as a young adult that ended badly for them and proved that they were better off not challenging my will), and as of now we have no plans to baptize our children (being an agnostic, I would not be the one encouraging it, but my wife has a problem with baptizing them if I'm not a believer, despite the fact that I am quite capable of teaching the precepts of the faith). But I wonder if we are doing the right thing.

Is omitting religion any different from forcing one on them? Ultimately, they will make their own decision, and our influence (by the absence of influence) will direct them. I just don't know where I stand on this issue.

(Wow. Having re-read this comment, I feel like it's all over the place. Sorry about that.)